History isn’t an endlessly repeating loop, Naomi Klein explained in our conversation this week — it’s more like a spiral, a drill bit that goes deeper and gets more dangerous with every rotation. The work we all have in front of us is how to get out of the hole and build something new.
Anat and I are both longtime fans of Naomi’s work, which includes groundbreaking books like The Shock Doctrine and No Logo. (Make sure to pre-order her new book, End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World, co-written with Astra Taylor, which comes out September 15, and subscribe to her new Substack.) Naomi has spent decades explaining how capitalists and authoritarians manufacture chaos to control us — and she says that AI is the worst offer she’s ever seen capitalism make to the public. They’re not even trying to hide that the goal is taking away our jobs and making worthless the education we go into debt for.
Naomi pointed out that democratic socialism has always scared the powerful more than communist authoritarianism ever did, because it threatens to actually deliver what people want. It’s why the US orchestrated coups in Latin America; it’s why we’re seeing so much elite panic over DSA-backed candidates winning elections; and it’s why Zohran Mamdani’s successes at not just winning, but governing, are so important and revealing.
But when the AI bubble bursts or the next disaster comes, we need to be prepared. We discussed how a great model for that is the “Minnesota miracle” — which wasn’t a miracle at all, but the product of deep organizing work and coalition building, especially with faith and labor groups. Anat talked about how the “Greater than Fear” campaign she helped create in 2018 helped define “Minnesotan-ness” — that being Minnesotan is being the kind of person who helps dig your neighbor’s car out of the snow. That sense of identity and belonging helps make the difference between “flash mobs,” as Naomi put it, and movements that last and spark real change. It’s why some of the most meaningful work we can do is just getting to know our neighbors — the ones who live where we do, not just online.
I added the idea of “no exit” to this equation. Unions and churches are such effective organizing institutions in part because once you’re in them, you’re part of a community that is difficult to leave. They give people structures and incentives to build reciprocal relationships, exercise collective power, and act like citizens, not just consumers. By contrast, as Naomi pointed out, exit is the billionaire’s dream.
We covered a lot of other ground, including a rundown of Tuesday’s election results; how a 2026 blue wave could transform what the Democratic caucus looks like, not just who controls the House; the power of anti-corruption narratives here and abroad; and how extreme wealth “deranges” those who hold it in addition to distorting our politics.
